Thank you Kacy for joining the discussion. The topic  is one in which a wide variety of opinions will doubtless be held and expressed. You should certainly feel welcome to make your opinion known.

That being said, I reject the notion that "racist remarks" have been made here, much less been the motivating factor for the participation of members in this discussion. The issue of outsourcing is larger than that. The debate has been about the quality of the work product, not the ethnicity, religion or color of the person producing it. The charge of racism will only act to chill the debate, a debate that should occur among those of us who are most affected by the practice.

I challenge you to show specifically where the "racist remarks" you allude to are in any of the postings. If you are speaking generally about things that are said in your community or comments you have heard outside of this discussion please make that clear. Those of us who do not share your opinion should not be called racists to hold our own.

Jerry Toadvine

Amazing post!!!  You are 100% on target!  There are two possible reasons our economy is in the shambles that it is in.  The people running it (the Fed, Treasury, etc.) are either incompetent or they are doing it on purpose.  These people are all Ivy-league educated, so to believe it is incompetance is ridiculous.  Why do people like Paulson give up multi-millions per year to go into "public service" jobs that pay nothing by comparison?  Why is there a revolving door between Goldman Sachs and the federal government?  I'm not for "bailing out" anybody, but why is it ok to give TRILLIONS to bailout the banks, but we cant find 25 billion to help save the automakers-- the only major remnants of a great industrial nation.  The globalist corporate and banking elite have been working on this for decades.  They want a global government and banking structure because it is easier for them, they make more money and have more power.  The only obstacle to this is national sovereignty, led by the United States.  They couldnt get us to go along while we were prosperous and affluent.  By getting us all in debt and taking away our good jobs, we will be willing to accept them as our "saviours".  They cause the problems and then claim they are the only ones with the solutions!  It is called "pressure from above, pressure from below".  They are playing chess with us and they are several steps ahead.  This quote from David Rockefeller says it all: "We are grateful to the Washington Post, NY Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years.  It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.  But now the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government.  The supra-natural sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."  These people have stated what they want to do.  This isnt conspiracy.  All you have to do is research it yourselves.  I dont want you to believe me.  I just want you people to look it up yourselves.  These people want to do away with the United States and all national sovereignty.  They want world government.  Why do all of these leaders (including ours) keep calling for a "New World Order"?  Did you know that the land the UN Headquarters is on was donated by the Rockefellers?  Look into the creation of the Federal Reserve.  Look into some of these "roundtable" groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg.  There are several books on these subjects but you cant find them in the big corporate bookstores.  Why?  I can find dozens of books on other "conspiracies" like JFK or space alien abductions or Nostradamus, etc.  You also wont get real news from CNN or Fox.  One year ago, the people I was listening to were saying we were already in a recession.  CNN and Fox were saying we were in a "slowdown" and things would be fine by the end of 2008.  Anyone who said otherwise was ridiculed.  Now even the mainstream media is saying it will get a lot worse before it gets better.  Today it comes out that we have been in a recession since last December!  The people I have been listening to have been right for years and the mainstream media has been wrong.  Who would you listen to?  I told friends last January things would get worse and that the big banking elite would end up being the biggest benficiaries.  I told friends months in advance to watch for JPMorgan to buy up assets at pennies on the dollar.  They create these bubbles and then pop them in order to buy up the pieces at bargain basement prices, further consolidating their power.  Anyway, to sum up, Kacy's blog is spot on and I hope people take it to heart.  I also hope people start doing their own research and quit relying on CNN and Fox for all their (dis)info. 

Racism is basically discrimination based off a person's genetic heritage.

While I think Jerry is technically correct in that there is no racism within these forums (of posts that haven't been pulled), there is definitely bias in favor of "made in USA." Call it patriotic, anti-foreign, or nationalistic... it boils down to a sort of bigotry.

I think what Kacy is referring to are the comments that are specifically directed at India of late.

Personally, I am no advocate of sending jobs over seas. I wish that I could say that we as Americans can do it: better, faster, and cheaper than anyone else. But truth is: What one man can do, another can do. Foreigners can do an equal job, but sometimes at a fraction of the cost.

Patriotism and pro-US bias = bigotry?  Hmmmm...interesting concept, James.  So that's why there are so many people risking their lives paddling makeshift rubber boats to Havana.

James, I for one will not be deterred from posting about the issue of outsourcing whether anyone views this discussion as being outright racism or a subtle form of bigotry. If you do you have missed the point. When you analogize "made in the USA" and bigotry it makes me wonder...who do you think Americans are? We are from everywhere. At any time in the counties that I work in I could be standing next to an African-American, an immigrant from Romania or India, or an Hispanic  woman who married a Korean guy as easily as I could be standing next to your prototypical WASP. That IS the America I love and defend. Please don't confuse the issues of quality, security and lost jobs in our industry with bigotry or racism. Local expertise is necessary to properly perform title searches. That experience can be gained over time by any person regardless of ethnicity, ect., but it cannot be gained from 6,000 miles away. That is why foreigners involved in outsourced jobs cannot match the quality of title work produced locally by experienced title searchers. American companies who choose to outsource for greed hurt Americans and receive an inferior product that they pass on to uninformed customers. That is the problem.

How is the use of slurs like "Crapistan" pro-US and not anti-foreign bigotry, Scott? 

By the way, our government prohibits the free travel of US citizens to Cuba.  Maybe if we made it legal to travel to Cuba, a few more people would do it, and probably a significant number of Cuban ex-pats WOULD move back there in time.

there is definitely bias in favor of "made in USA." Call it patriotic, anti-foreign, or nationalistic... it boils down to a sort of bigotry.

"Crapistan" is neither pro-US nor anti-foreign, nor is it a "slur".  Rather, it is a generic term I use to characterize parts of the world where freedom and free markets have traditionally not been permitted to flourish.  Sort of like Cuba, which I'm sure would be an idyllic paradise if not for that oppressive US trade embargo...(couldn't have anything to do with its government-controlled economy!)

Seeing as "Crapistan" contains the word "crap", it seems pretty derogatory to me.  Is India, our ally and an emerging economic power in the world, deserving of being dismissed as "Crapistan"?  I mean, that's the country which was being discussed, right? 

You see how well that Cuban Embargo has worked-- Castro is quite possibly the only person who has been on his job longer than Joe Paterno!  Trade embargoes tend to hurt the economy of both the country being embargoed and the embargoer-- such a staunch supporter of "free markets" such as yourself ought to understand that.  So if it 1) doesn't get rid of Castro, 2) hurts their economy, and 3) hurts our economy, then what purpose is it serving?

I don't want to use someone else's blog to get into a debate with you, suffice it to say that I think there's a big difference between "derogatory" and "bigoted".  And yes, India is worthy of being dismissed as "Crapistan" so long as they continue to produce incomplete, inaccurate and substandard (read:"crappy") title searches compiled from "thin" title plants and online indices.

BTW, I don't agree with the Cuban embargo, either, but I don't think the place would be any better off without it.

If some people in a foreign country engage in a business practice you deem to be deficient, you think the whole country is worthy of being called "Crapistan"? 

Have you ever seen India.....while I am sure it has it beautiful spots just like anywhere, it seems extremely impovershed.  The streets (which i think are mostly dirt) are terribly dirty too.  I also believe that multi-member families cohabitate in a "shack" the size of a large walk in closet.  I don't think it is a very nice place to live overall.  Not to mention disease - malaria, plague  smallpox and tuberculosis.  I do not believe they ever got a handle on these but I do know some progress has been made.

The culture shock would be amazing.  They suffer from high levels of poverty, malnutrition and illiteracy.  I am sure it is quite shocking for most Americans that go there for work.  I know there are a many that were laid off here and went there to get their jobs back. 

The illiterate part is the part that scares me when we talk about out sourcing our work there.  And now they are doing the most important part - title examiniations and commitments.  SCARY!!!

From Wikipedia: 

"Despite significant economic progress, a quarter of the nation's population earns less than the government-specified poverty threshold of $0.40 per day. In 2004–2005, 27.5% of the population was living below the poverty line.^[17]

More recently, India has capitalised on its large pool of educated, English-speaking people, and trained professionals to become an important outsourcing destination for multinational corporations ..."

Too bad they don't even relize they are being taken advantage of and exploited by greedy corporations that look to MAKE an extra buck.  Do they really believe that American Companies are there to help them????  They sure as heck didn't help the American people. 

So, overall, "crapistan" probably isn't a term I would use very often but it is not far of the mark.

I love the way you personalize this by making ME the issue.  The fact that their business practices are deficient is not just because I say so.  If there's any bigotry here, it's from the foreign-born executives of these companies who think we're stupid enough to just accept the crap they produce, no questions asked.

IIf you have a problem with the executives of these outsourcing firms, fine by me.  There's plenty of deficient business practices in India and America alike, and I have absolutely no problem at all with anyone who points this stuff out.   It doesn't change the fact that labelling a whole country as "Crapistan" because of the business practices of a few is uncalled for.

I just call them as I see them.

And it seems Scott, that you have taken the position that the entire country of India is crap.  You ignore the fact that it is the largest democracy in that area of the world and a valuable ally of the United States.

But, as you said, you call them as you see them.  I think you need to schedule an appointment with your eye doctor.  The condition you seem to have is called myopia.

It's not me who is having trouble seeing clearly.  This is a country which in spite of its rapid progress has yet to emerge from third-world status.  Residential indoor plumbing and running water are still the exception rather than the rule and homeowners allow their livestock to share their living quarters.

Communicable diseases like malaria, cholera, tuberculosis and leprosy are endemic due to improper sanitation and inadequate sewage disposal facilities (in other words, they still haven't quite figured out what to do with all that "crap".)  Malnutrition and mineral deficiency are leading causes of such maladies as goiter, scurvy and rickets.

Let's not forget that these are the people to whom we are entrusting the security of our sensitive information.  But you just go ahead and keep on criticizing me for pointing out the obvious.

Just to make sure we are speaking the same language.  Your quote "Crapistan is neither pro-US nor anti-foreign, nor is it a slur.  Rather, it is a generic term I use to characterize parts of the world where freedom and free markets have traditionally not been permitted to florish." 

While I agree that during the two-hundred years of the British Raj the country did not promote freedom and free markets, there was really no choice.  When independence was granted in 1947 however, India establised a democracy.  The largest democracy in the world.  It is a country that promotes free markets and a secular government.

I do agree they have a long way to go to improve the living conditions of the rural population.  They are up to 93% enrollment in school for those 6 thru 14.  The Indian Institiutes of Technology is considered to be second only to MIT in engineering.  I don't think they are doing that poorly in improving the lot of the people concidering they started pretty much from scratch just sixty years ago (with an immediate war with Pakastain over the Kasmir area, and two substantial conflicts after that).

The point being, without retreating to other issues, your use of the term "Crapistan" for India is misplaced.

As I am to mine.

I appreciate you taking the time to defend and justify your earlier quote regarding your use and definition of "Crapistan".  It really was all I was asking for, not the later dance into title searchs and living conditions.  You certainly made clear your objection to the democracy in India and their free trade ideals. Yes sir, there is no "slur" in your definition of "Crapistan".

Golly, until I read your earlier post, I did not realize that India could be viewed as Cuba done large.

I am quite done with this waste of time.

I meant what I said and I'm not taking it back, get used to it.  I don't recall soliciting your approval of my opinions in the first place anyway, so spare me your righteous indignation and mock expressions of frustration with this "waste of time".

First of all I would liken to thank you for joining this disscussion and now we can hit a century brother. Lets starts with a new blog instead of replying to these comments! what do you thinks about this ?

Thanks for your support to us.

"Communicable diseases like malaria, cholera, tuberculosis and leprosy are endemic due to improper sanitation and inadequate sewage disposal facilities (in other words, they still haven't quite figured out what to do with all that "crap".)"

Common Scott, can you please let me know that these things are part title business. Not clear to me please explain

Perhaps you should ask Messrs. Smith and Gallant, who chose to make me the issue with their knee-jerk reactions to one word that I used in a prior post rather than deal with the substance of my comments as they relate to title outsourcing.

How are you doing with the answers to the questions about title searching that I asked you in your other blog?

Hi Scott,

This is in reference to your question that you asked in other blog. I would like to answer this on behalf of my indian friend Sunil who is pissed off by you american abstractors who are thinking that they are the only ones who know about Title searching etc.

The answer is

- First I would check the legal description of both the documents to make sure that the release is related to the same property.

- Then I would check the book/page, date of mortgage, rec. date of mortgage, borrower's name etc. mentioned in the release of mortgage to make sure that it is referring to the same $150,000 mortgage.

- If both the above points prove that the mortgage has been released then I would not show this in the title commitment. However if this release of mortgage is not referring to the $150,000 mortgage that was showing up in our borrower's name then I would go ahead and report it in the Open Mortgages section.

These are the standard procedures that I follow while doing any title search across any state however these are not the only things that I look for when I do a title search but it is enough to answer your question.

Let me know if I earned those Bonus points by answering your dumb question !!

Sunil.

I am sorry to say your thanks for support is misplaced.  I, as most abstractors and examiners in the United States, am troubled by the outsourcing of our work.  I think it is a normal and reasonable concern on our part.  We in the United States have our nationalistic concerns as do you in India.

My only reason for joining the discussion here was to object to Scott's assertion that India does not promote freedom and free trade, thus being worthy of the title of "Crapistan".   I find it admirable that India was established as a democracy in '47 and has maintained that status.  It was the only point I was trying to make.

I do think you can do a reasonable job of searching titles on the most basic jobs, as in equity loans.  However, for exams involving transfers of property, I am afraid the on-line records are not adequate.  In order to truly protect the purchaser, it does require local knowledge and a personal visit to the courthouse.

I am quite happy with the SOT blogs and discussion page and really have no interest in getting involved in something new. 

Thank you for your response.  However, a release of mortgage is not the same as a satisfaction of mortgage in Pennsylvania.

A satisfaction piece indicates that the underlying debt encumbering the property has been fully paid or discharged.  A release of mortgage may only apply to a part of the debt obligation or to a part of the property encumbered by the mortgage.  Therefore, in my example, the mortgage should be shown on the abstract report even if all of your above conditions are met.

We would show the mortgage in question on our report with a notation of the relevant instrument information and provide our client with a photocopy of the release.  It is then up to their underwriter to make a determination as to whether or not to disregard said mortgage.

Sorry, Varun...no soup for you.

If you wouldn't mind reconciling the following two statements that you have made, I will become less confused.  The first statement you made on November 26 in a reply on Ojha's blog:

" want to say that this is true even to us...even here in India we have our different division from closing, scheduling, title search, commitment, abstract follow-ups, taxes and so on. and every state has a different division to do title searches on....There are different teams working on different states doing online title searches all at the same time and they are trained on state specific laws and nuances because they are experience in conducting searches in that particular State only." [emphasis added]

Above, in this thread, you state:

"These are the standard procedures that I follow while doing any title search across any state however these are not the only things that I look for when I do a title search but it is enough to answer your question."

Sir, my question to you is this:  Are you conducting title searches in multiple states, or is your expertise confined to a single state, as you suggested on November 26?  I ask this because I am skeptical of your customers' concern with local knowledge.   I suspect that you do not have a single team for each state.  The cost-savings just wouldn't justify it.

P.S.  I was sorry to hear of the attacks on Mumbai.  It was undeserved, and I hope the attackers' goal fails.

Scott's Super-special, Ten-point Bonus Question was:

Let's say that you are searching a property located in Westmoreland County, PA and you have found a mortgage for $150,000.00 which encumbers the property that you are searching.  Elsewhere in the index you find an instrument which states that the $150,000.00 mortgage has been released.  How would you handle this situation?

Varun basically said that the proper procedure would be to check the names, volume and page, legal description and amount on the release against the mortgage, and if it matched it would be eliminated.  That seems like a sufficient answer to me. 

Scott's point was that a release is not necessarily the same as a satisfaction and it may only release a part of the encumbered property.  While that is certainly true, that is why you would check the pertinent information against the mortgage, which Varun indicated as a part of the process.  You may not be able to rely on the index alone to determine if a release is valid, but if you check the documents for corresponding legal descriptions it doesn't matter.  If it releases the mortgage as to the searched property, it is irrelevant whether or not it is paid off.  We, as abstractors, do not care whether the loan has been paid off - if it is released as to the parcel we are searching it no longer encumbers the property and it may be properly eliminated.

I'd give Varun the ten-points and a hot bowl of the soup de jour!

Spot on Robert, I concure with your conclusion.  I would eliminate this from my commitment even if the examiner showed it as Scott mentioned.  Examiner notes are important and as I said before an examiner will take the time to make the notes upon review of the documents versus the "searcher" who shows everything, makes copies for me to review and leaves then it up to me to decide what is to be eliminated with no notations what so ever.  

Around Ohio (I am sure other states have this too) we also have Partial Releases to release one property from a loan that may cover multiple properties - normally used by builders.  In that case we would show the blanket mortgage with a notation that our parcel has been released from said mortgage. 

My job as an abstractor is not to make underwriting decisions.  I always teach my abstractors to show all open mortgages regardless of whether or not a release as to a specific parcel is of record.  My rule of thumb is that if there is no document stating that a mortgage is satisfied of record, it BETTER be on the report. 

That seems rather arbitrary.  Do you show judgment liens that are out by time?  There is no release filed, but it no longer encumbers the property. If you do, how far back do you show them? You must draw a line somewhere.  If a mortgage is released, it similarly no longer encumbers the property.

If you are doing true abstracting, you should show everything - released or satisfied, or not.  Today, abstractors don't do that.  We are expected to make some determinations and show only those documents that still have an impact on the title.  If its released, it does not.

It seems that you are making a decision not to show those that are satisfied, but you do show the ones that are released.  I'm confused because both equally no longer encumber the property.

I guess there is no harm in doing that, excpet that it creates more work for your client.  But, I also have no problem with Varun's description of the process either.

Well, that confirms it for me.  You are a searcher and not an examiner.  Typical of the average searcher to show all items that don't apply esspecially if a release or satisfaction is filled since they are pretty much one in the same thing. 

I am not sure you fall into the old time definintion of Abstractor either.  Just as Rob said you are making a decision as to how far back to search and not showing ALL items of record which is what a true abstract is.  

Just what I need, more work to do!!  Is that why I hire examiners???  I might as well learn to examine full force and do the job myself from the start.  I have limited training which includes court house travel and do not claim to be any kind of searcher/examiner/abstractor but common sense should prevail in most things in life and I think the ability to review a release/satisfaction and remove the corresponding mortgage from the report falls into that category. 

I suppose I should stop here before the name calling starts again.  LOL

Yeah, I can see where reading a notation and looking at a photocopy would be a real hassle.

As I indicated previously, when I do show such a mortgage, I make a supplemental notation and provide a copy of the release.  That way, if the wrong parcel has been released (which does happen), the client has documentation of the release on file without having to go to the expense of sending the abstractor back to the county.  It's called CYA.

And yes, I do show judgments whenever there is any question as to whether or not they might attach to the property I am searching, for example, with a name-only match.  It's in instances like this that I prefer to err on the side of caution.  I dunno, call me crazy.

But, we charge for copies and my clients don't want to pay for needless copies.  If the mortgage is released as to the property we are searching, I don't want my client scratching their head wondering why we showed it, or lamenting over the additional copy charge so they could arrive at the same conclusion.  That being said, if there is a defect in the release, we do show the mortgage and provide a copy of the release so they can decide how they want to take care of it.

Still... the point of the post wasn't to criticize the way you do your searches.  It was to point out that Varun's answer was perfectly acceptable.

The question was whether you show judgments out by time, and if so, how far back.  Name only is a given.

...I do show judgments whenever there is any question as to whether or not they might attach to the property I am searching...

This also applies to whether or not a judgment may or may not be "out by time" because of questions as to exactly when the clock starts. How far back would depend on the type of lien in question.  I cited "name only" merely as the simplest and most obvious example.

We only charge for copies that are requested by the client.  In a case like the one I described, I'd give them the copy for free so they have it for their file if a question ever arises.  I wasn't questioning Varun's knowledge of title searching procedures as much as of local custom and practice.

In a situation where the instrument information in the release refers to the subject mortgage but the legals don't match, I'd want to pull a copy of the tax map and/or the plan for verification.  That information would not necessarily be available to someone doing an online search.

You seemed to say that Varun was wrong... "no soup for you!"  Varun did include checking the legals, as well as various other information, to verify the release was releasing the right mortgage.   Perhaps that cannot be done with an "online" search with the access we have.  But, I don't think they are searching from our public access sites in all cases.  Remember that many of these companies buy the bulk records and index them into a title plant.  It still may be "online," but it isn't necessarily the same as our public records' web sites.

I am appalled by the bulk sale of our public records, but I hold that against our government officials.  It is also irresponsible of us to be selling that information.

So long as Varun has access to the images, I don't see a problem with it.  Granted, there is no way an accurate search can be conducted merely by looking at the index. 

That said, I have other issues with searches being done overseas.  I think that there is language barrier problem and I do not think that they get adequate training from what I have read.  For instance, there was that executive of one of the Indian outsourcing companies boasting about his 30 of training.  That is not even close to being sufficient, in my opinion.  And, generally, I am opposed to outsourcing American jobs, especially those that involve access to confidential information of American citizens.

I want to clarify one thing - When I mean online searches it does not mean that we conduct online searches merely by looking at the indexes. We only do an online seach when the images are available and as Robert rightly said in his above post  that "as long as Varun has the access to the images, i don't see a problem with it"

I guess the abstractors really mis-understood the whole scenario. We only and only conduct an online title search when the images are available online. Even we do not rely on the indexes and also if we are in any kind of doubt or if the image is not available online then we use the abstractors to go to the county courthouses to get that specific document and then we prepare complete our search and prepare the commitment/prelim letter.

I have never seen a forum that is not afraid to say it like they see it. We don't seem to have many sheep in this industry. I daresay my recent blog may have been a miss.

It is so completely amusing that we as a nation somehow think we can tell other nations how to get along or what to do or not do. Has anyone checked out the deficit in the last 10 years?

I still dream about not hearing the apathetic remarks about how slow business is because of the economy. It's all of us, we have to be the ones to produce and demand.

Feelin like a conspiracy theorist.

I don't know that this site has any negative racial slurs but I have definitely heard them. Right on, target the correct source of the problem!

Best, Amy @ Timely Documents www.TimelyDocuments.com